I just have to ask.. Why so much hate towards sketches?!

[EternityOfPain]

This has been on my mind for quite some time. I have talked to many different collectors and most of the time when I mention "sketches" they usually respond that they dont like sketches etc. I can understand that of course if the series has cels its more appealing to buy the cels verses the sketches however I have heard some people say how because new shows are done "CG" they plan to stop or slow down collecting because they are not interested in collecting sketches.

So I guess my main question is, why do you (or collectors you know) tend to not wish to collect sketches/genga etc?

[usamamo]

I would love to have some sketches from some of the new CG shows, like Fruits Basket But I don't buy them because they can cost as much as some of the cels I want and certain wishlist cels too. So it is like 'why spend that much on a sketch when I can have a cel that I want for the same price'

Maybe one day I will venture into CG sketches.

[sensei]

I'd say that in some (not all) cases, sketches simply don't have the visual appeal of cels. Part of the moxie of buying a cel is that you have in your hands the image that shows up on the screen -- nice in the case of TV series, often blockbusting in the case of movie cels. With a sketch you have ... well ... one of the steps that led up to the creation of the image on the screen. For intellectual collectors like myself, that has a moxie of its own, particularly when you can see the creative process at work through rough drafts, discarded ideas, last-moment changes, etc.

But, frankly, a lot of sketches that come up for sale are not very impressive as art, particularly for the newest shows, where much of the creative process was done on computers, and so the most finished sketches either weren't released by the studio or just don't exist. So you get lots offered for sale that consist of very rough layouts and planning sketches. Add that some lots aren't even original pencil-on-paper but annotated and colored photocopies, yet command steep prices. And you can see why some people aren't interested. You can still get a lot more moxie for your buck with cels.

I do collect some CGI series, where the sketch process involved an unusual amount of creativity. Chief among these are the Saiyuki sagas, which used a Ken Burns visual style: over and over, we have big pans of still images, with dialogue in a voice-over. That saved time and money on mouth layers, but it meant that many of the images were A1 ENDs that had to be near-hanken in quality because they were on the screen so long. And Studio Pierrot's art has always been wicked good anyhow, so even the action sequences are jaw-droppingly vibrant.

But much as I like Fruits Basket, I've never been tempted to bite on any of the art. It's nice ... but the impact of the series isn't artistic but instead comes through the depth of the story and the quality of the voice acting -- and with Aya Hisakawa and Tomokazu Seki as Yuki and Kyo, how could it miss?

So I can see why some people who love a series and want a piece of art from it would be, frankly, disappointed, especially after paying more than they expected. The answer is to develop more of an aesthetic sense, and collect animation art that is genuinely good, regardless of how popular the series is at the moment.

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

I thought about this exact same question recently, why I do not like sketches as much as cels.
These are just my opinions and not meant to knock anyone who collects sketches.
I do like sketches for what they are, but the question is asking why a cel collector prefers cels over sketches.

I came up with an answer that involved some of what Sensei just said. The fact that sketches are not what you see on the screen.
When you buy a cel, you get the exact item you see used in the anime. That, as mentioned in another thread, gives the collector a rush.
There's something thrilling and nearly magical about collecting cels for that reason. At least, that's my personal motivation.
Also, it's the allure of collecting the finished product versus something that was used to make the finished product.
The image you see on screen is the finished product, which you can collect if it's cel based.

I have a great emotional attachment to cel based shows because that's what I grew up watching.
There were no digital shows in the 80s and 90s, so when I started collecting, cels were a natural choice. No question.
Perhaps if CG colored shows were the norm during my childhood, I might hold some affinity towards them. Who knows.

While there are plenty of beautiful digital shows, I am still not overly impressed with the look of most series.
When digital coloring was first employed to entirely create a series, the effect was not astounding to say the least.
There was still more depth of field in cel based shows because layers of acetate stacked create an optic effect that was/is lacking in digital shows.
It took some time to make CG series look right. And, to me, they still don't look right in some cases.

The switch to digital methods was for a reason. I know studios migrated because it was an economic and time sensitive choice.
In other words, fast and cheap. Studios could produce more series for less money and a lot of the series were just not as good.
Therefore, I don't have the same feelings for the characters in most modern series (this isn't always true, but for the most part...)

When I look at cels, I think about the time involved in the production. In the case of movies, I think about the years required to complete production.
Knowing artists worked with their hands directly on the acetate, with paints and brushes has a primal appeal.
The colors are visually more striking and appealing to me than those possible with a sketch.

If I did collect something based on a CG series, it would be a fan cel created from a screencap or hanken image.
It's about the only way I'm interested. When it comes to purchasing stacks and stacks of paper or a couple cels, I'm going for the cels.

[EternityOfPain]

The fact that sketches are not what you see on the screen.

I do agree however if the sketch is A1 or the first sketch in a sequence it is very close to what actually appears on screen. However I do understand that its not "exactly" but honesty sometimes a sketch can protray what a cel cannot. This is just my oppinon.

The switch to digital methods was for a reason. I know studios migrated because it was an economic and time sensitive choice.
In other words, fast and cheap. Studios could produce more series for less money and a lot of the series were just not as good.

How it may be true that thanks to CG creating shows production has increased however its not always as easy as it seems. Of course i dont know first hand but reading on what i can regarding production its not a simply task. I believe CG is a step forward in the anime industry because it allows for new ideas and creativity. CG opened the doors to individuals that want to create there own projects (just look at the success of Voices of a distant star). (whoops sorry for the rant..)

Knowing artists worked with their hands directly on the acetate, with paints and brushes has a primal appeal.

As long as your not buying douga (computer copies) you are buying something that was created by hand and drawn by the animators. Just my personal thought but I think sketches allow us to see the thoughts of the animator in the process, for me this is just awesome.

When it comes to purchasing stacks and stacks of paper or a couple cels, I'm going for the cels.

This remark made me laugh a bit cause reminded me of the set of sketches i got with a huge amount of mouth/ear layers. But you know you only get stacks when you buy a scene cut so all you have to do is buy standalone sketches etc.

All in all it really is your choice. I hope I didn't sound rude because that was not my intent.

[graymouser]

I'm one of those who strongly prefer cels. I have a few sketches, but not many.

For me, color is a big part of it. I know that sketches do have some color, but nothing like cels or their backgrounds. I also love to be able to go to the show and find the scene that a cel or a background comes from. It's nice to see the actual image on the screen.

I think sketches are an interesting part of the production process, but I doubt I will buy many of them. For many shows, the cost of the sketches outweighs my attraction to them. Maybe someday I will feel differently. For now I tend to buy sketches for two main reasons. 1) I already own the cel and want to match up the set. 2) They happen to come with the background I am buying. I occasionally buy sketches alone, but they are usually impulse buys.

[Not Sir Phobos]

Personally, I only collect cels. It's the whole magical thing about literally owning a piece of what was flashing on the screen that captivated you. Sketched don't do anything for me. But I wouldn't turn one down either.

I honeslty don't dislike them I'm just impartial.

[cutiebunny]

One word - Color.

I love colors. Had I lived in Japan, I probably would have been the person who delegated colors to the animators and would have obsessed over the difference between Red 03 and Red 04. When I took art classes in high school, the coloring part, regardless of the technique used, was always my favorite part of the class. Color gave an item life(especially when the eyes were filled in) and without color, the piece just seemed so lifeless.

This is why the majority of my collection has, and will likely always be, cels. I'm drawn to a piece because of the colors used, or the combinations of the color sequences used. This probably also explains my drive to purchase backgrounds for cels that did not come with matching(or complimentary) backgrounds - without color in the missing space, the piece does not feel "alive".

I do own some work from CG animes because I enjoyed the artistic style used(other than settei, I own artwork from "Rozen Maiden"), but, I'm not drawn to purchase it the way I am with colored artwork.

[darksuzaku]

I wouldn't say "hate" against sketches, but i understand why people feel that way, even if it might be because of a mistaken reason...... Example of a mistaken reasoning:

1- No more cel based shows......
2- Cel market becomes dry.......
3- Many people start to collect sketches......
4- Sketches get prices as high as cels would.....
5- Number of cel collectors decrease......
6- Remaining cel collectors believe sketches are taking the collectors for themselves......

You can see, even if it's a mistaken reasoning it's very easy to think things like "If sketches didn't exist all those people would be collecting cels", and therefore you have people comparing cels and sketches to see which is better, when they can't be compared because they are different things with different pourposes.

[Keropi]

Yes...this thread is very interesting to read others point of view. I hate to comment on it though because negative things could come out from it.

But let me say that I like "stacks" because the "situation" works out for me.

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

All in all it really is your choice. I hope I didn't sound rude because that was not my intent.

This is going to sound weird, I already know, so please forgive me but I'm not sure how else to word this. So, here goes. You posed a question to the forum, asking why some people prefer cels over sketches (you said hate, which I found too harsh a word, but anyway). I answered in all honesty why I prefer cels. As did several other people. Why is it that you single me out and proceed to pick apart my answer? I prefaced my statements with the fact that I can understand why people would collect sketches and my opinions are in no way a knock against sketch collectors. Of course there is some kind of appeal to sketches, otherwise people would not collect them. But I'm not here to defend the allure of sketches, I'm here to explain why I like cels better because that's the question you proposed. I didn't make my own thread bashing sketches or something.

Again, I know it might sound like I'm trying to argue, but I'm honestly not. I just find it odd that you single out my responses and proceed to explain why I'm wrong. You asked for opinions and you got em. There's no science behind it really, I just happen to like cels better and I told you a few reasons why. I'm not trying to convince anyone that cels are superior to sketches because art is subjective. I can tell you why I like them more but I don't expect to "convert you." If anything, I'd like it best if more people collected sketches and left all the cels for me mwhahaha!

[vapalla]

I prefer cels, but I also collect some sketches. I think the main reason I am not as interested in sketches is that many available series only have partials or roughs (as Sensei pointed out). I also am much less interested in dougas which look like elaborate coloring book illustrations rather than hand-made works. Studio Pierrot series are an exception as the studio has animators fully draw out the images and studying all the sketches in a cut can be fascinating. I would collect from more Pierrot series like Bleach if the prices weren't so exorbitant.

[sugarcels]

Overall, I prefer cels. I love the fact that they were actually used and seen onscreen. Plus I love color

That is not to say I hate sketches. Heck, I have a good 30 from Pokemon. This is because I love the show so much (the first two seasons, anyway) that even owning something that was part of the PROCESS makes me terribly happy. Then again, these are not rough drawings, the artists actually drew them pretty darn close to the cels. I know I could never afford these scenes should the cel show up, so I'm content with them for now.

So, I am not closed away from buying a sketch should the right one come up, but I'm not willing to spend more than, say, $30 for one, either, no matter how nice it looks (although, if it's a sketch of a wishlist cel, maybe).

[EternityOfPain]

All in all it really is your choice. I hope I didn't sound rude because that was not my intent.

This is going to sound weird, I already know, so please forgive me but I'm not sure how else to word this. So, here goes. You posed a question to the forum, asking why some people prefer cels over sketches (you said hate, which I found too harsh a word, but anyway). I answered in all honesty why I prefer cels. As did several other people. Why is it that you single me out and proceed to pick apart my answer? I prefaced my statements with the fact that I can understand why people would collect sketches and my opinions are in no way a knock against sketch collectors. Of course there is some kind of appeal to sketches, otherwise people would not collect them. But I'm not here to defend the allure of sketches, I'm here to explain why I like cels better because that's the question you proposed. I didn't make my own thread bashing sketches or something.

Again, I know it might sound like I'm trying to argue, but I'm honestly not. I just find it odd that you single out my responses and proceed to explain why I'm wrong. You asked for opinions and you got em. There's no science behind it really, I just happen to like cels better and I told you a few reasons why. I'm not trying to convince anyone that cels are superior to sketches because art is subjective. I can tell you why I like them more but I don't expect to "convert you." If anything, I'd like it best if more people collected sketches and left all the cels for me mwhahaha!

Didn't really want to single you out. I know what I asked and you presented your oppinon perfectly its just i simply wanted to counter your opinion with mine thats all. Healthy debate ^_^

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

Didn't really want to single you out. I know what I asked and you presented your oppinon perfectly its just i simply wanted to counter your opinion with mine thats all. Healthy debate ^_^

Sure, I completely respect that. But you can hopefully see where I'm coming from here. I thought we (cel collectors who prefer cels) were simply expressing why we like cels. I don't tend to post in threads where a debate is proposed because of all the pointless back and forth. You see things your way and I see things my way. You're right and I'm right. I wouldn't have it any other way and I'd never waste my breath trying to convince someone of something they didn't think was right or true.

I don't want to offend collectors by attacking their passions. I wasn't doing that. I wouldn't want my comments to be viewed that way. It just seemed to me that you were picking apart my logic and no one else's (probably because you only quoted my post, many times).

Anyway, I apologize and I don't want to derail this thread or scare off other posters from voicing their opinions.