I just have to ask.. Why so much hate towards sketches?!

Topics of anime/other animation art and collectibles.
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EternityOfPain
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Post by EternityOfPain »

wELCOME cONSUMER wrote:
EternityOfPain wrote:Didn't really want to single you out. I know what I asked and you presented your oppinon perfectly its just i simply wanted to counter your opinion with mine thats all. Healthy debate ^_^ :sweatdrop
Sure, I completely respect that. But you can hopefully see where I'm coming from here. I thought we (cel collectors who prefer cels) were simply expressing why we like cels. I don't tend to post in threads where a debate is proposed because of all the pointless back and forth. You see things your way and I see things my way. You're right and I'm right. I wouldn't have it any other way and I'd never waste my breath trying to convince someone of something they didn't think was right or true.

I don't want to offend collectors by attacking their passions. I wasn't doing that. I wouldn't want my comments to be viewed that way. It just seemed to me that you were picking apart my logic and no one else's (probably because you only quoted my post, many times).

Anyway, I apologize and I don't want to derail this thread or scare off other posters from voicing their opinions.
Agreed. We are both winners :woot:
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GuyvarIII
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Post by GuyvarIII »

I can’t comment on not liking sketches. No mater what I buy, I’m getting a brief moment in a larger storyline. I can point and say “I have that cel” and I can point and say “I have the sketch(es) to that moment.” I don’t limit myself by an image’s medium as much as I limit myself on what the image is of. In all cartoons, limited by the overall look of the show, there are well drawn and badly drawn moments.

But I agree with this:
wELCOME cONSUMER wrote:While there are plenty of beautiful digital shows, I am still not overly impressed with the look of most series.
In a general sense, I also esthetically prefer 80s-90s era anime. My collection represents my taste. So, for the most part, I prefer both sketches and cels from pre-CG shows.

It’s not that there aren’t any moments in newer anime that I like. But with new stuff there’s more competition, more collectors will know a new TV series than remember a one shot OVA from 1 or 2 decades ago. It’s not always the case, but a lot of my cels already cost less than my sketches. As I mentioned above I prefer the look of pre-CG shows anyway, and if I can get something I like more for less, why would I spend more on something I don’t want as much? This isn’t always the case, I have production artwork from CG shows but, based on the look of newer anime, I don’t think my CG sketches will ever overtake my production cels.
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sailorsv13
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Post by sailorsv13 »

I have nothing against sketches...I like sketches, nay...I love sketches! ^.^

~ Bri ~
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Post by kizu »

I'm more of a color person... I like cels over sketches but sometimes I have no choice but get a sketch from a favorite CG show. But eventhough I say this, I doubt I would try as hard to collect a sketch since there's still many shows that I love that is cel-based. I'm also a bit weirded out by the price of some sketches a lot of which is based on popularity... I just think more work was involved in creating a cel and so it's okay if I pay more dollars for it. Maybe if the prices of the sketch i'm interested in goes down to more reasonable prices I will go for them.... And it's just to me not the same, it doesn't elicit the same feeling as when I see the scene/character on the screen when I look at a sketch as when I look at cels... Oh I wonder if that made sense... :O
My Cel & Sketch Gallery: http://hajimenokizu.com
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klet
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Post by klet »

EternityOfPain wrote:As long as your not buying douga (computer copies) you are buying something that was created by hand and drawn by the animators.
Huh? I've seen you mention something like this a few times, and I think you may be a bit confused (either than or I have been confused for the past year and a half :P ).

Douga are not done on the computer--someone draws them. Granted, it's not the head animator, and the non-key ones are done by inbetweeners, who tend to be animators with less experience, but they are drawn by hand.

The douga is the thing that (in the old days) got ran through the special copy machine and thus transfers the trace lines onto the acetate.

Granted, there are some copied sketches out there, but you hardly see copies of douga--usually it's layouts, story boards, settei, and more recently, genga that get copied. Though I have seen some Cowboy Bebop douga copies around.
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RoboFlonne
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Post by RoboFlonne »

Argh! I hate Sketches!!!

1. They are ugly!

They are so ugly!!!

2. Just don't buy them.

3. Paper! Are you insane to buy paper?


Don't ever buy sketches...

And I'll have less competition!

:vict :vict :vict :vict :vict /thx
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Post by monkeyboy »

sensei :
But, frankly, a lot of sketches that come up for sale are not very impressive as art, particularly for the newest shows, where much of the creative process was done on computers and so the most finished sketches either weren't released by the studio or just don't exist.
I agree with everything sensei wrote.
Nothing against CGed anime, but they lack the "human touch" in most of the sketches I see up for sale today.

From my personal view point as an artist, I enjoy Studio Pierrot's work on Saiyuki. There are some sketches that the quality of line work, composition and detail make for a fine work of art suitable for framing just as they are. I hope sensei will allow me to link and share one of my favorite sets of sketches he owns:
http://sensei.rubberslug.com/gallery/in ... mID=173574
Just an incredible work of pencil art!


Back in my DBZ days of collecting, I started with cels. After seeing some of the sketches from the anime for sale too, I began to collect those. I'm truly glad I did! Such awesome work in them, see for yourself in the links below:

http://stu.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_i ... emID=13001
Sorry I've only posted two of the sketches on white and two on yellow paper from this Goku set. Each sketch of the set is worthy of looking at for a period of time.

http://stu.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_i ... temID=7932
Although a small image of Trunks, the mass of his figure is wonderful! This and the sketch next to it are from another sweet set.

http://stu.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_i ... temID=7943
This set of Super 17 sketches is awesome too! I love his eyes, what great expression.

http://stu.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_i ... emID=44079
Finally this set of Goku "powering-up" and the Olibu & Goku next to it are my all time favorite Z sketch sets.

I feel cels and sketches deserve to be enjoyed for their own merits. Neither is superior in my eyes.
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Post by metheus »

Odd, but ya, what RoboFlonne said... makes for less competition : )

8 out 10 of my last auctions were paper. No complaints here. Also, I like to gather peices from all stages of the animation "process" for my favorites.
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Post by kymaera »

I think that Sensei made most of the points that I would've made, so just
subsitute "sensei" for "stupid" in the following:

:stupid:
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Post by genomexec »

For me, too, it's all about what's on the screen.

This may be dorky, but whatever:
When I get a cel, I like to put the anime on and find that exact frame, and then hold my cel up in front of my face at just the right distance so it fits like a puzzle peice. I get a kick out of knowing that I own a little part of that moment, something that makes that anime what it is to me and all of the fans. Without that cel that I got, the anime would be different, sometimes a lot different.

For me, a sketch doesn't give that thrill. It's too indirect.



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Post by purplewiz »

Most of the folks above have pretty much covered it, so add one more vote for "don't particularly care for most of the CG series I've seen" and "they're just not as visually appealing".

You can probably add in "and dealers are charging as much for some CG series sketches as for an actual cel which is way more than they're worth to me".
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EternityOfPain
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Post by EternityOfPain »

Thank you for all that particpated thus far, its been really helpful. After reading I noticed there was one major similarity. Which is that generally speaking when given a choice between buying a sketch or cel many of you said you would choose a cel.

My question is... What’s your take on the Japanese mentality of expensive sketches? I mean they can't be crazy to list the prices for the sketches of CG shows so high (hopefully). So I was wondering if anyone has a rational explanation for this. Are sketch simply more accepted in Japan verses anywhere else? Or do you believe they are simply overcharging?

(I decided not to make a new thread so i just stuck the questions here... It does save space heh)
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Post by redwolf »

The fact that sketches are not what you see on the screen.
As one of the few collectors who started off on cels and now prefers sketches...I love this. I can point at the screen (or the image in the artbook) and say I have part of the process that you don't see. I even have a few cases where I can point at the screen and say I have that entire cut of genga, shuusei, and douga. 8) I probably could have seen this coming... I also like showing my cels in their entirety, rough paint edges and all, and have every intention of rectifying my old scans that cut off the registration holes.

I even find myself wishing that certain cel-based shows had sketch sets turn up, like they do for a number of CG shows. Granted, I find that I am even pickier with sketches from cel-based shows...and the only complete cut I've purchased so far became lost somewhere on the way to my deputy...
sensei wrote:So I can see why some people who love a series and want a piece of art from it would be, frankly, disappointed, especially after paying more than they expected. The answer is to develop more of an aesthetic sense, and collect animation art that is genuinely good, regardless of how popular the series is at the moment.
I did this a couple of times...the Saiyuki genga were just that pretty. I ended up selling them because what really makes this hobby for me is a connection to the characters. A lot of my favorites from my collection are actually incredibly rough or simple. Would I like some more finished sketches? Of course, but with the destruction of sketches being so much easier than cels, I feel lucky to have what I own. I can't afford to pass up a decent rough of one of my most favorite characters on the off chance that a more finished genga may eventually appear. I've passed before, and I'm still kicking myself. And I have to say...some roughs are incredibly nice, and have a certain character that a finished sketch might lack.

Roughs, layouts, corrections, genga and/or douga...These days, I almost always feel i get more for my money on sketches. For the price of a single cel, I can get 10 to well over 100 sketches. For 1/3 of the price I paid for my most expensive cel, I bought an entire 4+ second cut of a great scene from Azumanga Daioh. It's all a matter of perspective.
EternityOfPain wrote:My question is... What’s your take on the Japanese mentality of expensive sketches? I mean they can't be crazy to list the prices for the sketches of CG shows so high (hopefully). So I was wondering if anyone has a rational explanation for this. Are sketch simply more accepted in Japan verses anywhere else? Or do you believe they are simply overcharging?
I can't say it is a Japanese mentality...the most expensive sketch auctions I remember on Yahoo Japan had deputy bidders upping the prices. The series I recall were Full Metal Alchemist and Witch Hunter Robin.

Either way, I think it is pretty simple...even though less people are interested, there is also much less to go around. The more popular series will get more of the "less people interested." More bidwars between us 'crazy' collectors='crazy' prices. Really, it's not much different than cels.
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Post by sensei »

Redwolf, Monkeyboy, kymaera, thanks for the kudos. I also really like the Kougaiji that MB linked to, and almost put it up for the Beta awards, but in the end went with a sketch that I thought had more immediate "street appeal" in its reduced scanned size.

That's one thing, too, about sketches: they often have a physical appeal that requires you to see them. It's not easy to capture in a scan. I think it has to do with the obvious way in which some sketches are creations: you see the evidence of the first levels of drawing, then the refining work in sharper, darker pencil, and often the erased first ideas. It's the part of the production process when the image is created, and this "present at creation" feeling makes many roughs and layouts well worth collecting to me, even of series that are cel-based like Hyper Police, TnN, and MKR.

Redwolf's Winry sketches have that same sort of thrill to them: a great image ... and here's the very sheet (bought by Bones at an AIG garage sale!) where the animator "discovered" it.

And if you have some skill at reanimating sketches (I love the ones monkeyboy did), or if you're lucky enough to have a friend who does, then you get an extra thrill out of owning a long set of dougas. I can't resist adding one small link to the above (thanks again Vamppy!):

Watch Inuyasha squish Myoga!

I didn't give much of a defense of sketches because of the question that was asked (why do people "hate" them) and so I'm glad to see so many strong arguments for respecting this part of collecting.

Concerning the pricing, I did notice about a year ago that starting prices for many series, including dealers' prices and opening bid prices, had gone up sharply. Until then, sets of sketches, even for fairly recent shows, had been much more reasonable than cels. I speculate that, with high end cels starting to dry up, dealers are realizing that to keep their incomes healthy, they need to shepherd the new wave of collectables onto the market with care.

As another thread commented, it was once the practice to drop a lot of inventory at once; then dealers began to pick and choose what gets sold more cautiously. That's why there's so many CCS cels out there that stay fairly reasonable in price, and relatively few IY cels, which stay higher in price, even though there are more IY cels in existence than CCS cels.

So I think it's a careful manipulation of supply and demand. My guess is that as some shows lose their "bloom," the demand will drop and you'll see dealers drop huge lots of stuff on the market, which is the case of Saiyuki sketches, which are artistically great and dirt-cheap ... but that $30 "internal shipping" to get the giant bale of paper you've just won... ow ow ow ow ow!

Heh. :D
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Post by wELCOME cONSUMER »

I think the price for sketches is due to the fact that sketches are the latest medium. All of the newer shows are produced that way and newer series are always going to be in higher demand. Wait a few years, and the prices for sketches from particular series might/will drop.

This is true for cels, so I assume it's true for sketches too. Before the bubble bursts, prices are in the triple and quadruple digits. After the bubble bursts, prices plummet.

American sketches are pretty pricey as well, so I doubt it's just a Japanese ideal.
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